U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican have done a poor job of handling sexual abuse, a significant rise from three years ago. A majority said that the issue had led them to question the Vatican’s authority. The sexual abuse of children by priests is the largest problem facing the church, Catholics in the poll said.

Three-fourths of those polled said they thought it was a good idea for Benedict to resign. Most wanted the next pope to be “someone younger, with new ideas.” A majority said they wanted the next pope to make the church’s teachings more liberal.

With cardinals now in Rome preparing to elect Benedict’s successor, the poll indicated that the church’s hierarchy had lost the confidence and allegiance of many American Catholics, an intensification of a long-term trend. They like their priests and nuns, but many feel that the bishops and cardinals do not understand their lives.

“I don’t think they are in the trenches with people,” said Therese Spender, 51, a homemaker in Fort Wayne, Ind., who said she attended Mass once a week and agreed to answer further questions after the poll. “They go to a lot of meetings, but they are not out in the street.”

Even Catholics who frequently attend Mass said they were not following the bishops’ lead on issues that the church had recently invested much energy, money and credibility in fighting — artificial birth control and same-sex marriage.

Eric O’Leary, 38, a funeral director in Des Moines who attends Mass weekly, said: “I would like them not to be so quick to condemn people because of their sexual preference or because of abortion, or to refuse priests the right to get married or women to be priests. I don’t think the church should get involved in whether or not people use birth control.”

The nationwide telephone poll was conducted on landlines and cellphones from Feb. 23 to 27, when many Catholics were still absorbing news of the first resignation of a pope in 600 years. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus four percentage points for the 580 Catholics, who were oversampled for purposes of analysis in the survey of 1,585 adults.

Benedict, a soft-spoken scholar and a church traditionalist, had apparently made little impression on American Catholics in his eight years as pope. Half of those in the poll said they either had no opinion of him or had not heard enough about him. Nevertheless, 4 in 10 had a favorable opinion, and only one in 10 unfavorable.

“He’s written three or four books, and his writings are incredible,” said Leonard Lefebvre, 70, a retired economist in Tequesta, Fla. “He’s continued on course, and he’s held the religion to where it’s supposed to be at.”

The poll suggested that the papacy no longer occupies the exalted position it once did. Asked whether the pope is infallible when he teaches on matters of morality and faith, 40 percent said yes, 46 percent said no, and 14 percent said they did not know. Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.

When asked which “one thing” they would “most like to see the next pope accomplish,” the most common responses that respondents volunteered were, in order: bring people back to church, modernize the church, unify the church, and do something about sexual abuse.

A spate of new information about prelates hiding the misdeeds of pedophile priests appeared to have taken a toll. A higher percentage of Catholics said the pope and the Vatican had done a poor job of handling reports of past sexual abuse recently (69 percent) compared with 2010 (55 percent), when the abuse scandal flared in many European countries. This is despite the church’s many reforms in the last 10 years and reports of abuse by priests in the United States declining drastically.

Majorities said they wanted to see the next pope maintain the church’s opposition to abortion and the death penalty, even though they themselves were not opposed to them. Three-quarters of Catholics supported abortion under at least some circumstances, and three-fifths favored the death penalty.

“I can understand how the Catholic Church stands against it,” said Geri Toni, 57, of abortion. “We are not supposed to kill. That is one of our Ten Commandments.”

“But as a woman,” said Ms. Toni, who lives in Fort Myers, Fla., and attends Mass weekly, “I have to make sense of it, and I believe choice comes down to the individual.”

On every other hotly debated issue, Catholics wanted the next pope to lead the church in an about-face. Seven of 10 Catholics polled said the next pope should let priests marry, let women become priests and allow the use of artificial methods of birth control. Nine of 10 said they wanted the next pope to allow the use of condoms to prevent the spread of H.I.V. and other diseases.

Sixty-two percent of Catholics said they were in favor of legalizing marriage for same-sex couples. Catholics approved of same-sex marriage at a higher rate than Americans as a whole, among whom 53 percent approved.

John Sadel, 28, a supervisor in a plastics production facility in Bethlehem, Pa., said, “I’m not saying change everything the church stands for, but you need to evolve with the times if you want to remain a viable religion.”

The American bishops also appear to have lost ground among their own flock in their campaign to fight the White House rule that requires employers to provide insurance coverage for contraceptives — a campaign the bishops say is about religious freedom.

One year ago, two-thirds of Catholics polled said that religiously affiliated employers, like hospitals or universities, should be allowed to opt out of covering birth control for their female employees because of religious or moral objections. In the most recent poll, only about half of Catholics said they agreed.

The issue has become a political litmus test, with Catholic bishops and religious conservatives saying that their religious freedom is being threatened by President Obama’s policies. But when asked what the debate is about, only 40 percent of Catholics polled said “religious freedom,” while 50 percent said “women’s health and their rights” — an indication that Mr. Obama’s framing of the issue is holding sway even among many Catholics.

Catholics seemed to feel far more warmly toward their local priests than those in the hierarchy. Seven in 10 Catholics in the poll said they felt that their parish priests were “in touch with the needs of Catholics today.” Eighty-five percent of those who attend Mass said the sermons were excellent or good.

Nearly two-thirds of Catholics polled said they had not changed the amount of money they contributed to the church in the last few years; 16 percent said they gave more; 17 percent said less. Of those giving less, half said it was because of financial circumstances, and one-quarter cited unhappiness with the church.

Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican have done a poor job of handling sexual abuse, a significant rise from three years ago. A majority said that the issue had led them to question the Vatican’s authority. The sexual abuse of children by priests is the largest problem facing the church, Catholics in the poll said.

Three-fourths of those polled said they thought it was a good idea for Benedict to resign. Most wanted the next pope to be “someone younger, with new ideas.” A majority said they wanted the next pope to make the church’s teachings more liberal.

With cardinals now in Rome preparing to elect Benedict’s successor, the poll indicated that the church’s hierarchy had lost the confidence and allegiance of many American Catholics, an intensification of a long-term trend. They like their priests and nuns, but many feel that the bishops and cardinals do not understand their lives.

“I don’t think they are in the trenches with people,” said Therese Spender, 51, a homemaker in Fort Wayne, Ind., who said she attended Mass once a week and agreed to answer further questions after the poll. “They go to a lot of meetings, but they are not out in the street.”

Even Catholics who frequently attend Mass said they were not following the bishops’ lead on issues that the church had recently invested much energy, money and credibility in fighting — artificial birth control and same-sex marriage.

Eric O’Leary, 38, a funeral director in Des Moines who attends Mass weekly, said: “I would like them not to be so quick to condemn people because of their sexual preference or because of abortion, or to refuse priests the right to get married or women to be priests. I don’t think the church should get involved in whether or not people use birth control.”

The nationwide telephone poll was conducted on landlines and cellphones from Feb. 23 to 27, when many Catholics were still absorbing news of the first resignation of a pope in 600 years. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus four percentage points for the 580 Catholics, who were oversampled for purposes of analysis in the survey of 1,585 adults.

Benedict, a soft-spoken scholar and a church traditionalist, had apparently made little impression on American Catholics in his eight years as pope. Half of those in the poll said they either had no opinion of him or had not heard enough about him. Nevertheless, 4 in 10 had a favorable opinion, and only one in 10 unfavorable.

“He’s written three or four books, and his writings are incredible,” said Leonard Lefebvre, 70, a retired economist in Tequesta, Fla. “He’s continued on course, and he’s held the religion to where it’s supposed to be at.”

The poll suggested that the papacy no longer occupies the exalted position it once did. Asked whether the pope is infallible when he teaches on matters of morality and faith, 40 percent said yes, 46 percent said no, and 14 percent said they did not know. Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.

When asked which “one thing” they would “most like to see the next pope accomplish,” the most common responses that respondents volunteered were, in order: bring people back to church, modernize the church, unify the church, and do something about sexual abuse.

A spate of new information about prelates hiding the misdeeds of pedophile priests appeared to have taken a toll. A higher percentage of Catholics said the pope and the Vatican had done a poor job of handling reports of past sexual abuse recently (69 percent) compared with 2010 (55 percent), when the abuse scandal flared in many European countries. This is despite the church’s many reforms in the last 10 years and reports of abuse by priests in the United States declining drastically.

Majorities said they wanted to see the next pope maintain the church’s opposition to abortion and the death penalty, even though they themselves were not opposed to them. Three-quarters of Catholics supported abortion under at least some circumstances, and three-fifths favored the death penalty.

“I can understand how the Catholic Church stands against it,” said Geri Toni, 57, of abortion. “We are not supposed to kill. That is one of our Ten Commandments.”

“But as a woman,” said Ms. Toni, who lives in Fort Myers, Fla., and attends Mass weekly, “I have to make sense of it, and I believe choice comes down to the individual.”

On every other hotly debated issue, Catholics wanted the next pope to lead the church in an about-face. Seven of 10 Catholics polled said the next pope should let priests marry, let women become priests and allow the use of artificial methods of birth control. Nine of 10 said they wanted the next pope to allow the use of condoms to prevent the spread of H.I.V. and other diseases.

Sixty-two percent of Catholics said they were in favor of legalizing marriage for same-sex couples. Catholics approved of same-sex marriage at a higher rate than Americans as a whole, among whom 53 percent approved.

John Sadel, 28, a supervisor in a plastics production facility in Bethlehem, Pa., said, “I’m not saying change everything the church stands for, but you need to evolve with the times if you want to remain a viable religion.”

The American bishops also appear to have lost ground among their own flock in their campaign to fight the White House rule that requires employers to provide insurance coverage for contraceptives — a campaign the bishops say is about religious freedom.

One year ago, two-thirds of Catholics polled said that religiously affiliated employers, like hospitals or universities, should be allowed to opt out of covering birth control for their female employees because of religious or moral objections. In the most recent poll, only about half of Catholics said they agreed.

The issue has become a political litmus test, with Catholic bishops and religious conservatives saying that their religious freedom is being threatened by President Obama’s policies. But when asked what the debate is about, only 40 percent of Catholics polled said “religious freedom,” while 50 percent said “women’s health and their rights” — an indication that Mr. Obama’s framing of the issue is holding sway even among many Catholics.

Catholics seemed to feel far more warmly toward their local priests than those in the hierarchy. Seven in 10 Catholics in the poll said they felt that their parish priests were “in touch with the needs of Catholics today.” Eighty-five percent of those who attend Mass said the sermons were excellent or good.

Nearly two-thirds of Catholics polled said they had not changed the amount of money they contributed to the church in the last few years; 16 percent said they gave more; 17 percent said less. Of those giving less, half said it was because of financial circumstances, and one-quarter cited unhappiness with the church.

Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican have done a poor job of handling sexual abuse, a significant rise from three years ago. A majority said that the issue had led them to question the Vatican’s authority. The sexual abuse of children by priests is the largest problem facing the church, Catholics in the poll said.

Three-fourths of those polled said they thought it was a good idea for Benedict to resign. Most wanted the next pope to be “someone younger, with new ideas.” A majority said they wanted the next pope to make the church’s teachings more liberal.

With cardinals now in Rome preparing to elect Benedict’s successor, the poll indicated that the church’s hierarchy had lost the confidence and allegiance of many American Catholics, an intensification of a long-term trend. They like their priests and nuns, but many feel that the bishops and cardinals do not understand their lives.

“I don’t think they are in the trenches with people,” said Therese Spender, 51, a homemaker in Fort Wayne, Ind., who said she attended Mass once a week and agreed to answer further questions after the poll. “They go to a lot of meetings, but they are not out in the street.”

Even Catholics who frequently attend Mass said they were not following the bishops’ lead on issues that the church had recently invested much energy, money and credibility in fighting — artificial birth control and same-sex marriage.

Eric O’Leary, 38, a funeral director in Des Moines who attends Mass weekly, said: “I would like them not to be so quick to condemn people because of their sexual preference or because of abortion, or to refuse priests the right to get married or women to be priests. I don’t think the church should get involved in whether or not people use birth control.”

The nationwide telephone poll was conducted on landlines and cellphones from Feb. 23 to 27, when many Catholics were still absorbing news of the first resignation of a pope in 600 years. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus four percentage points for the 580 Catholics, who were oversampled for purposes of analysis in the survey of 1,585 adults.

Benedict, a soft-spoken scholar and a church traditionalist, had apparently made little impression on American Catholics in his eight years as pope. Half of those in the poll said they either had no opinion of him or had not heard enough about him. Nevertheless, 4 in 10 had a favorable opinion, and only one in 10 unfavorable.

“He’s written three or four books, and his writings are incredible,” said Leonard Lefebvre, 70, a retired economist in Tequesta, Fla. “He’s continued on course, and he’s held the religion to where it’s supposed to be at.”

The poll suggested that the papacy no longer occupies the exalted position it once did. Asked whether the pope is infallible when he teaches on matters of morality and faith, 40 percent said yes, 46 percent said no, and 14 percent said they did not know. Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.

When asked which “one thing” they would “most like to see the next pope accomplish,” the most common responses that respondents volunteered were, in order: bring people back to church, modernize the church, unify the church, and do something about sexual abuse.

A spate of new information about prelates hiding the misdeeds of pedophile priests appeared to have taken a toll. A higher percentage of Catholics said the pope and the Vatican had done a poor job of handling reports of past sexual abuse recently (69 percent) compared with 2010 (55 percent), when the abuse scandal flared in many European countries. This is despite the church’s many reforms in the last 10 years and reports of abuse by priests in the United States declining drastically.

Majorities said they wanted to see the next pope maintain the church’s opposition to abortion and the death penalty, even though they themselves were not opposed to them. Three-quarters of Catholics supported abortion under at least some circumstances, and three-fifths favored the death penalty.

“I can understand how the Catholic Church stands against it,” said Geri Toni, 57, of abortion. “We are not supposed to kill. That is one of our Ten Commandments.”

“But as a woman,” said Ms. Toni, who lives in Fort Myers, Fla., and attends Mass weekly, “I have to make sense of it, and I believe choice comes down to the individual.”

On every other hotly debated issue, Catholics wanted the next pope to lead the church in an about-face. Seven of 10 Catholics polled said the next pope should let priests marry, let women become priests and allow the use of artificial methods of birth control. Nine of 10 said they wanted the next pope to allow the use of condoms to prevent the spread of H.I.V. and other diseases.

Sixty-two percent of Catholics said they were in favor of legalizing marriage for same-sex couples. Catholics approved of same-sex marriage at a higher rate than Americans as a whole, among whom 53 percent approved.

John Sadel, 28, a supervisor in a plastics production facility in Bethlehem, Pa., said, “I’m not saying change everything the church stands for, but you need to evolve with the times if you want to remain a viable religion.”

The American bishops also appear to have lost ground among their own flock in their campaign to fight the White House rule that requires employers to provide insurance coverage for contraceptives — a campaign the bishops say is about religious freedom.

One year ago, two-thirds of Catholics polled said that religiously affiliated employers, like hospitals or universities, should be allowed to opt out of covering birth control for their female employees because of religious or moral objections. In the most recent poll, only about half of Catholics said they agreed.

The issue has become a political litmus test, with Catholic bishops and religious conservatives saying that their religious freedom is being threatened by President Obama’s policies. But when asked what the debate is about, only 40 percent of Catholics polled said “religious freedom,” while 50 percent said “women’s health and their rights” — an indication that Mr. Obama’s framing of the issue is holding sway even among many Catholics.

Catholics seemed to feel far more warmly toward their local priests than those in the hierarchy. Seven in 10 Catholics in the poll said they felt that their parish priests were “in touch with the needs of Catholics today.” Eighty-five percent of those who attend Mass said the sermons were excellent or good.

Nearly two-thirds of Catholics polled said they had not changed the amount of money they contributed to the church in the last few years; 16 percent said they gave more; 17 percent said less. Of those giving less, half said it was because of financial circumstances, and one-quarter cited unhappiness with the church.

Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

„Rom ohne Papst“ - dies Szenario wurde immerhin durchdacht im gleichnamigen Roman von Guido Morselli. Darin beschrieb der Autor Mitte der sechziger Jahre des vergangenen Jahrhunderts den Katholizismus der kommenden Jahrtausendwende als laxe Sozialethik im Dialog mit Psychoanalyse, Buddhismus, Atheismus und Feminismus. Morsellis Zukunftspapst Johannes XXIV. hat sich, dieweil der Vatikan zum musealen Lunapark umgebaut wurde, aus Kostengründen in die Vorstadt Zagarolo zurückgezogen und auf seine Rolle als Stellvertreter Christi verzichtet. Der Autor Morselli erschoss sich an seinem Schreibtisch, weil niemand seine melancholische Vision vom Glauben ohne Pomp und Geheimnis drucken wollte. Doch ganz so arg, wie er fürchtete, ist es dann doch nicht gekommen. Einen deutschen Papst in Pension freilich hatte das neue Jahrtausend bereits in petto. Und ob der nächste Pontifex sich als ein Johannes XXIV. tatsächlich der radikalen Modernisierung des Katholizismus widmen wird, das handeln die üblichen Verdächtigen im Vatikan gerade in zähem Ringen miteinander aus.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/it...s-12106595.html

Zitat von Swann im Beitrag #29

---

„Rom ohne Papst“ - dies Szenario wurde immerhin durchdacht im gleichnamigen Roman von Guido Morselli. Darin beschrieb der Autor Mitte der sechziger Jahre des vergangenen Jahrhunderts den Katholizismus der kommenden Jahrtausendwende als laxe Sozialethik im Dialog mit Psychoanalyse, Buddhismus, Atheismus und Feminismus. Morsellis Zukunftspapst Johannes XXIV. hat sich, dieweil der Vatikan zum musealen Lunapark umgebaut wurde, aus Kostengründen in die Vorstadt Zagarolo zurückgezogen und auf seine Rolle als Stellvertreter Christi verzichtet. Der Autor Morselli erschoss sich an seinem Schreibtisch, weil niemand seine melancholische Vision vom Glauben ohne Pomp und Geheimnis drucken wollte. Doch ganz so arg, wie er fürchtete, ist es dann doch nicht gekommen. Einen deutschen Papst in Pension freilich hatte das neue Jahrtausend bereits in petto. Und ob der nächste Pontifex sich als ein Johannes XXIV. tatsächlich der radikalen Modernisierung des Katholizismus widmen wird, das handeln die üblichen Verdächtigen im Vatikan gerade in zähem Ringen miteinander aus.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/it...s-12106595.html

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #30

---

Zitat von Swann im Beitrag #29

---

„Rom ohne Papst“ - dies Szenario wurde immerhin durchdacht im gleichnamigen Roman von Guido Morselli. Darin beschrieb der Autor Mitte der sechziger Jahre des vergangenen Jahrhunderts den Katholizismus der kommenden Jahrtausendwende als laxe Sozialethik im Dialog mit Psychoanalyse, Buddhismus, Atheismus und Feminismus. Morsellis Zukunftspapst Johannes XXIV. hat sich, dieweil der Vatikan zum musealen Lunapark umgebaut wurde, aus Kostengründen in die Vorstadt Zagarolo zurückgezogen und auf seine Rolle als Stellvertreter Christi verzichtet. Der Autor Morselli erschoss sich an seinem Schreibtisch, weil niemand seine melancholische Vision vom Glauben ohne Pomp und Geheimnis drucken wollte. Doch ganz so arg, wie er fürchtete, ist es dann doch nicht gekommen. Einen deutschen Papst in Pension freilich hatte das neue Jahrtausend bereits in petto. Und ob der nächste Pontifex sich als ein Johannes XXIV. tatsächlich der radikalen Modernisierung des Katholizismus widmen wird, das handeln die üblichen Verdächtigen im Vatikan gerade in zähem Ringen miteinander aus.

http://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/it...s-12106595.html

---

Colombo, den ich persönlich erlebt habe, täte besser daran, alle "pregiudicati", Verbrecher, Mafiosi und Nutten aus dem Parlament rauszuwerfen statt der Abgeordneten, die nicht Schlips und Anzug tragen.

Ansonsten hier, speziell für Willie:

"Gerade unter diesem Vorzeichen ist nun lange behauptet worden, dass sich die katholische Kirche durch ihre – gegenüber den protestantischen Konfessionen viel prononciertere – Distanz zum Säkularismus in eine nachteilige Position gebracht habe. Doch genau das Gegenteil scheint der Fall zu sein, wenn man weltweit – und unter bestimmten Prämissen selbst in Europa – die juengsten Entwicklungen in der Demographie von Katholizismus und Protestantismus vergleicht. Denn wer als Bürger in einer säkularisierten Welt und Öffentlichkeit lebt, der braucht eigentlich keine religiöse Institution zur Bestätigung gleichsam und zur Wiederholung des alltäglichen Säkularismus; in diesem Sinn hat ein allzu historisches und allzu säkulares Selbstverständnis den verschiedenen Protestantismen wohl eher geschadet."
http://blogs.faz.net/digital/2013/03/08/...d-die-welt-159/

Das Plädoyer eines "religiös Unmusikalischen" für die "RKK"...

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #27

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.
That's a Catholic stance. If you follow your conscience - even if what your conscience says is wrong - you are justified. The numbers are not new and not surprising. So, later on, we can talk about the "viability" of the Catholic church. ;-)

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #32

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #27

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.
That's a Catholic stance. If you follow your conscience - even if what your conscience says is wrong - you are justified. The numbers are not new and not surprising. So, later on, we can talk about the "viability" of the Catholic church. ;-)

---

"...Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years. ..."

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #33

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #32

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #27

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.
That's a Catholic stance. If you follow your conscience - even if what your conscience says is wrong - you are justified. The numbers are not new and not surprising. So, later on, we can talk about the "viability" of the Catholic church. ;-)

---

"...Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years. ..."

---

Das hängt mit dem Rückgang der Priesterzahlen zusammen, nicht mit dem Rückgang der Anzahl der Gläubigen. Die "RKK" wächst in den USA immer noch, wenn auch vor allem durch den Zuzug aus Lateinamerika.

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #34

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #33

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #32

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #27

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.
That's a Catholic stance. If you follow your conscience - even if what your conscience says is wrong - you are justified. The numbers are not new and not surprising. So, later on, we can talk about the "viability" of the Catholic church. ;-)

---

"...Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years. ..."

---

Das hängt mit dem Rückgang der Priesterzahlen zusammen, nicht mit dem Rückgang der Anzahl der Gläubigen. Die "RKK" wächst in den USA immer noch, wenn auch vor allem durch den Zuzug aus Lateinamerika.

---

"...to save money and to respond to changing demographics" hat mit Priesterzahlen nichts zu tun.

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #35

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #34

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #33

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #32

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #27

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.
That's a Catholic stance. If you follow your conscience - even if what your conscience says is wrong - you are justified. The numbers are not new and not surprising. So, later on, we can talk about the "viability" of the Catholic church. ;-)

---

"...Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years. ..."

---

Das hängt mit dem Rückgang der Priesterzahlen zusammen, nicht mit dem Rückgang der Anzahl der Gläubigen. Die "RKK" wächst in den USA immer noch, wenn auch vor allem durch den Zuzug aus Lateinamerika.

---

"...to save money and to respond to changing demographics" hat mit Priesterzahlen nichts zu tun.

---

Between 1990 and 2008, there were 11 million additional Catholics. The growth in the Latino population accounted for 9 million of these. They comprised 32% of all American Catholics in 2008 as opposed to 20% in 1990.[28]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ch...es#Demographics
In 33 Bundesstaaten stellen sie die größte Denomination.

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #36

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #35

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #34

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #33

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #32

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #27

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.
That's a Catholic stance. If you follow your conscience - even if what your conscience says is wrong - you are justified. The numbers are not new and not surprising. So, later on, we can talk about the "viability" of the Catholic church. ;-)

---

"...Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years. ..."

---

Das hängt mit dem Rückgang der Priesterzahlen zusammen, nicht mit dem Rückgang der Anzahl der Gläubigen. Die "RKK" wächst in den USA immer noch, wenn auch vor allem durch den Zuzug aus Lateinamerika.

---

"...to save money and to respond to changing demographics" hat mit Priesterzahlen nichts zu tun.

---

Between 1990 and 2008, there were 11 million additional Catholics. The growth in the Latino population accounted for 9 million of these. They comprised 32% of all American Catholics in 2008 as opposed to 20% in 1990.[28]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ch...es#Demographics
In 33 Bundesstaaten stellen sie die größte Denomination.

---

Natuerlich. Die sind ja auch von Hause aus katholisch. Nominell. Wer von Lateinamerika kommt, der ist das in der Regel. In manchen Staaten ist es ja Staatsreligion. Das ist also growth by birthrate. And immigration. Es ist nicht growth by proselycation and conversion.

Die Kinder gehen auch groesstenteils nicht mehr in katholische Schulen -wie das frueher bei den Italian, Irish und Polish Americans praktisch der Standard war. Die Schulen werden geschlossen -because of lack of attendance and lack of funds. Kirchengemeinden auch.

"...In 2011, an estimated 26 million American Catholics were "fallen-away", that is, not practicing their faith. Church leaders commonly refer to them as "the second largest religious denomination in the United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ch...es#Demographics

"...Thus, notice that we are fairly steady in terms of our percentage of the U.S. population. That also means that, as the U.S. population has grown significantly since WW II so have our numbers. In the early 1950s there were about 35 million Catholics in the US. Today there are are over 75 million. This number however does not distinguish between practicing and non practicing Catholics. It is estimated that just over 80% of Catholics attended Mass each Sunday in the 1950s. Today it is estimated that about 25% of Catholics go each Sunday. That means that in the early 1950s about 28 million Catholics were in Church each Sunday. Today that number, even with a growing Catholic population, has dropped to 19.2 million. In other words, almost 9 million fewer Catholics are in Church now as compared to the 1950s...."
http://blog.adw.org/2010/12/is-the-botto...s-the-question/

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #37

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #36

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #35

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #34

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #33

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #32

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #27

---

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #26

---

U.S. Catholics in Poll See a Church Out of Touch

U.S. Catholics Welcome a Papal Change: In a New York Times/CBS poll, the majority of Catholics said Pope Benedict XVI made the right decision to step down and hope for a more liberally focused leadership.

Roman Catholics in the United States say that their church and bishops are out of touch, and that the next pope should lead the church in a more modern direction on issues like birth control and ordaining women and married men as priests, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

Seven out of 10 say Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/pol...gewanted=2&_r=1

---

Nearly 8 in 10 Catholics polled said they would be more likely to follow their conscience on “difficult moral questions” than to follow the pope’s teachings.
That's a Catholic stance. If you follow your conscience - even if what your conscience says is wrong - you are justified. The numbers are not new and not surprising. So, later on, we can talk about the "viability" of the Catholic church. ;-)

---

"...Nationwide, bishops are closing parish churches and schools to save money and to respond to changing demographics. The reorganization is so sweeping that the poll found that 11 percent of Catholics who attend Mass said their parish church had closed or merged in the last few years. ..."

---

Das hängt mit dem Rückgang der Priesterzahlen zusammen, nicht mit dem Rückgang der Anzahl der Gläubigen. Die "RKK" wächst in den USA immer noch, wenn auch vor allem durch den Zuzug aus Lateinamerika.

---

"...to save money and to respond to changing demographics" hat mit Priesterzahlen nichts zu tun.

---

Between 1990 and 2008, there were 11 million additional Catholics. The growth in the Latino population accounted for 9 million of these. They comprised 32% of all American Catholics in 2008 as opposed to 20% in 1990.[28]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ch...es#Demographics
In 33 Bundesstaaten stellen sie die größte Denomination.

---

Natuerlich. Die sind ja auch von Hause aus katholisch. Nominell. Wer von Lateinamerika kommt, der ist das in der Regel. In manchen Staaten ist es ja Staatsreligion. Das ist also growth by birthrate. And immigration. Es ist nicht growth by proselycation and conversion.

Die Kinder gehen auch groesstenteils nicht mehr in katholische Schulen -wie das frueher bei den Italian, Irish und Polish Americans praktisch der Standard war. Die Schulen werden geschlossen -because of lack of attendance and lack of funds. Kirchengemeinden auch.

"...In 2011, an estimated 26 million American Catholics were "fallen-away", that is, not practicing their faith. Church leaders commonly refer to them as "the second largest religious denomination in the United States."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Ch...es#Demographics

"...Thus, notice that we are fairly steady in terms of our percentage of the U.S. population. That also means that, as the U.S. population has grown significantly since WW II so have our numbers. In the early 1950s there were about 35 million Catholics in the US. Today there are are over 75 million. This number however does not distinguish between practicing and non practicing Catholics. It is estimated that just over 80% of Catholics attended Mass each Sunday in the 1950s. Today it is estimated that about 25% of Catholics go each Sunday. That means that in the early 1950s about 28 million Catholics were in Church each Sunday. Today that number, even with a growing Catholic population, has dropped to 19.2 million. In other words, almost 9 million fewer Catholics are in Church now as compared to the 1950s...."
http://blog.adw.org/2010/12/is-the-botto...s-the-question/

---

Ich will die Probleme nicht kleinreden, und Probleme gibt es auf jeden Fall. Aber: Fakt 1: Es gibt mehr Katholiken als vor zehn oder zwanzig Jahren. Fakt 2: Zunächst einmal ist es egal, wie dieses Wachstum zustande kommt - ob durch Proselytentum, Geburten oder Immigration. Fakt 3: Man kann Katholiken, die die Messe nicht besuchen, nicht einfach als "fallen-away" ansehen. Es gibt verschiedene Stufen der Verbundenheit, die sich wiederum ganz unterschiedlich äußern kann. Solange jemand nicht bewusst "geht", gehört er dazu. Fakt 4: Die stärkste Wanderungsbewegung gibt es nicht zwischen Katholiken und Protestanten, sondern innerhalb der protestantischen Denominationen - weg von den Episcopalians, Lutheranern, Methodisten und Presbyterianern hin zu den Pfingstgemeinden. Wie auch immer man das bewertet, es zeigt jedenfalls, dass Frauenpriester, verheiratete Priester, eine "liberale" Haltung "in sozialen Fragen" keine Allheilmittel im Kampf gegen den Mitgliederschwund sind.

---

Ich bin aufgeregt. Wer wird es wohl?

Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #39

---

Ich bin aufgeregt. Wer wird es wohl?

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #40

---

Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #39

---

Ich bin aufgeregt. Wer wird es wohl?

---

Scherer.
Erdö.
Ouellet.
Scola.
O'Malley.

Ich vermute, einer von diesen. Scherer und Erdö haben den Vorzug, Peter in ihrem Namen zu haben. (Turkson zwar auch, aber nach seinen Verlautbarungen über Homosexuelle...) Und da der letzte Papst "Petrus Romanus" heißen soll nach der Prophezeiung des Malachias...

Ich schätze, dass es auch ein kurzes Konklave werden wird...

(Später erkläre ich dann, warum meine Voraussagen falsch waren. :-))

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #40

---

Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #39

---

Ich bin aufgeregt. Wer wird es wohl?

---

Scherer.
Erdö.
Ouellet.
Scola.
O'Malley.

Ich vermute, einer von diesen. Scherer und Erdö haben den Vorzug, Peter in ihrem Namen zu haben. (Turkson zwar auch, aber nach seinen Verlautbarungen über Homosexuelle...) Und da der letzte Papst "Petrus Romanus" heißen soll nach der Prophezeiung des Malachias...

Ich schätze, dass es auch ein kurzes Konklave werden wird...

(Später erkläre ich dann, warum meine Voraussagen falsch waren. :-))

---

Zitat von Swann im Beitrag #42

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #40

---

Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #39

---

Ich bin aufgeregt. Wer wird es wohl?

---

Scherer.
Erdö.
Ouellet.
Scola.
O'Malley.

Ich vermute, einer von diesen. Scherer und Erdö haben den Vorzug, Peter in ihrem Namen zu haben. (Turkson zwar auch, aber nach seinen Verlautbarungen über Homosexuelle...) Und da der letzte Papst "Petrus Romanus" heißen soll nach der Prophezeiung des Malachias...

Ich schätze, dass es auch ein kurzes Konklave werden wird...

(Später erkläre ich dann, warum meine Voraussagen falsch waren. :-))

---

Da habe ich was verpasst. Was hat er denn zur Homosexualität verlautbart , der Turkson?
Ich tippe auch auf Scherer, bei so viel Vorschusslorbeeren von allen Seiten. Allerdings muss dafür die Phalanx der Italiener endlich mal zurückstecken. Ob die sich dazu druchringen werden...?

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #43

---

[
Turkson hat denselben Unsinn wie Bertone erzählt und einen Zusammenhang zwischen Pädophilie und Homosexualität hergestellt. Wenn diese Leute doch einfach mal ein paar Fachleute fragen würden, bevor sie solche "Erklärungen" abgeben.

Die Phalanx der Italiener? Die sind doch untereinander vollkommen zerstritten. Das einzige, was Bertone und Bagnasco zum Beispiel vereint, ist die Ablehnung eines Papstes Angelo Scola.

---

Zitat von Swann im Beitrag #44

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #43

---

[
Turkson hat denselben Unsinn wie Bertone erzählt und einen Zusammenhang zwischen Pädophilie und Homosexualität hergestellt. Wenn diese Leute doch einfach mal ein paar Fachleute fragen würden, bevor sie solche "Erklärungen" abgeben.

Die Phalanx der Italiener? Die sind doch untereinander vollkommen zerstritten. Das einzige, was Bertone und Bagnasco zum Beispiel vereint, ist die Ablehnung eines Papstes Angelo Scola.

---

Gerade lese ich, Turkson soll ein begnadeter Musiker sein, sehr gut singen und Gitarre spielen können. Ob das seine Chancen Papst zu werden steigert ? :-)
http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/artic...icht-Papst.html

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #17

---

Weiß ich auch nicht, aber Hautfarbe oder Kontinent sind sekundär: Wer ein glänzender Theologe, ein hervorragender Seelsorger und Hirte, ein exzellenter Manager, ein gewiefter Politiker, ein Kommunikationsgenie und großer Redner ist, mehrere Sprachen spricht, weiß, wie man Menschen motivieren und den Glauben in die heutige Zeit übersetzen kann, der soll den Zuschlag bekommen. :-)

---

Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #46

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #17

---

Weiß ich auch nicht, aber Hautfarbe oder Kontinent sind sekundär: Wer ein glänzender Theologe, ein hervorragender Seelsorger und Hirte, ein exzellenter Manager, ein gewiefter Politiker, ein Kommunikationsgenie und großer Redner ist, mehrere Sprachen spricht, weiß, wie man Menschen motivieren und den Glauben in die heutige Zeit übersetzen kann, der soll den Zuschlag bekommen. :-)

---

Irgendwie habe ich den Eindruck, daß Du da an Dottore Maga denkst:)

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #47

---

Hiiiilfe, eher werde ich Mr. Universum. :-) (Abgesehen davon bin ich verheiratet, wodurch ich auch de iure unwählbar bin. :-))

---

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #47

---

Hmm, vielleicht kommt der nächste Papst aber wieder aus "deinem" ehemaligen Umfeld...

---

Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #48

---

Ein IM, oder ein OibE, oder ein IMB oder ein GMS?
Oder meinst Du das geopolitisch?

---

Damit wir nichts wesentliches verpassen:

http://www.n-tv.de/panorama/11-00-Eroeff...le10275986.html